“Political Discourse by Sir John Stradling” - 1625

National Library of Wales Document - 5666c

A
Politike Discourse
or
Dialogue between a knight of the Commons-house of Parliament;
And a Gent: his friend being a moderate Romane Catholique.

Divided into two parts
A fore-noones,and an
after-noones Discourse.

by Sir John Stradling Kt: and Btt: 1625

To the right honorable my very good Lord William
Earl of Pembroke, Lord Chamberlaine of his
Majesties Household, and of his highness most
honourable privy Counsaill.

My Good Lord. The occasion of this ensuing discourse, not being imaginarie or feined, but for the most part really offered in my hearing at sundrie times, in severall places and companyes, my selfe inferring somewhat thereupon that necessarilie must followe, and having framed in my head an idea of the wholl; the quickening genius of my zealous affection to doe my kinge and countrie any acceptable service hath produced therof this embrion. Such as it is presuming first upon the noblenes of your heroick disposition, prone to countenance all vertuous and laudable endeavours; next, upon your experienced favoures towards me, I make bould to offer the same to your honourable viewe, wishing it may receave no higher place of preferment, then your Lord in your judgment shall thinke it worthy off. If it dislike you, I will both abandon it, and also take order it may displease none ells; obscuritie shall exempt it from reprehension and obloquie1; But if you conceave a favourable opinion of it, then neither I, nor it, need greatly to feare the censure of others. I am not so much mistaken or selfe conceipted as to imagin that my slender judgment and shallowe apprehension, could add any thing to the perfection of your knowledge and experience in busines of this nature; But happily this discourse will give light and satisfaction to some temperat men, whome it may import to understand themselves and others aright, in some points herein discussed. Surelie I entred at first into a serious consideration of it, for the quiet and contentment of my owne conscience, which end having fullie attained unto, nowe I leave it to rest in your honours disposing, and myself to remaine
Humble at you lordships command and service:

The Forenoones Discourse.

GENT:

Good Sir. You have been a great stranger in the countrie, wee have long lacked you at home, and I assure you many of us your neighbours (my selfe especially for one) expected you the sooner by reason of the several strickt proclamations, which commanded all men from the townes and cities, to their countrie dwellings. I knowe that diverse knights and gentlemen, having settled themselves in the cittie this last winter, taken horses upon termes, and made their provisions for staying, when enforced to tack about and make aboorde, sailing backe to anchor in their home portes. Wherein they thought themselves hardly dealt withall. I praie where took you shelter against thos storms?

KNIGHT:

For my part I never feared shipwreck, caryed with a hopefull gale of winde in the sound vessell of a good conscience, and sailing upon Mare Pacificum under the lee of my then gracious Sovereignes ARK ROYALL.

GENT:

Sir, pardon me if I understand not aright your allergoricall ridle. I perceave by your speach you were confident upon some what. It may be you stood in the grace of Eolus, and had the winds shut up in a sack to let loose at your pleasure, so to be fairly blown into the harbour if need were. I have been told of some others in this tempest, whoe shunned the danger by the benefit of such gentle gales, issuing out of their baggs mouthes.

KNIGHT:

In good faith (my friend) howsoever perhapps you take the matter not amisse, as touching some others: yet believe me you are mistaken in my case; I relied upon a good conscience and a just cause.

GENT:

Why Sir, by your leave, what confidence could you have in the justice of your cause. Were you not preciselie pointed at by the letter of the proclamation? Beelike you had a license or dispensation from his Royal Majesty for it was said that none else could dispence with you.

KNIGHT:

It is true the letter was stronge against all, (they were learned and skillfull that penned it). But the justice and equitie of his majestys royal heart was far stronger, to create confidence in many his dutifull and loyall subjects, that they should find him gracious in allowing them the libertie of free people, if they should happen to be questioned and some to speak for themselves.

GENT:

I praie you Sir, what could they have said for themselves? Were they not sufficiently informed of his master's pleasure? Howe could any man hould plea against the proclamation? KNIGHT: I hope the case may be argued heer in private betwixt you and me, so it passe no further. I will speak only of that proclamation which came out in Michaellmass term last which seemed to pinch harder than any of the rest, especiallie upon such as were then parliament-men: Amongst whom many being in the cittie about terme-buisines, and many drawen thither upon expectation of the session which had been appointed the second of November; It could not but be grievous to diverse of them, who dwelt in the remotest parts of the kingdom (some of them perhapps weake, old, sicklie, and ill accommodated for such longe journies in that season of the yeare) to be commanded away for so shorte a time as was from the end of that terme to the begining of the next; yet all were put pell-mell into the same predicament without exception or qualification and some of us saluted with processes even before the said terme ended. If this were Summum ius, then you know what follows next. And surelie this proceeding seemed so much against the haire, that men could not but divine diverselie howe it came about, and might with probability conjecture that his most excellent majesty was not rightlie informed of it. I am much mistaken but that some personages of the most eminent rank and places in the state, ( whoe usuallie were to have been acquainted with it) knowe nothing of the coming out of that proclamation untill it had passed the presse, and was abroad publike in print.

GENT:

Mee thinks, gentle sir you aggravat this matter more then needs. In such particular equitable cases, and for persones qualified and conditioned as you pretend, there lay a faire and easie waie open to them; They might have travailled themselves or otherwise made their dispatches to the courte, and obtained licences for their stay. They could not have lacked mediators and intercessors for them in that place; you know it well.

KNIGHT:

Indeed you have hit the naile just on the head. I marvaile howe such an olde ladd as you, after so long a retirednes here belowe in the countrie, had the skill so readilie to direct men the neerest way for obtayning their desires thereabout. I heard say that some walked in those pathes which you have nowe chalked out. But yet you ought to consider that men of ingenious and generous dipositions, being most obedient and submissive to their leige lord and sovereigne, can hardlie bowe to become petitioners unto their fellowe subjects, or to contract with them for their birth-rights immunities and liberties; nay they had rather (in such equitable and conscionable cases as before propounded) abide the hazards of relying on their soveraignes gracious integritie, (whereof for my part I should never make doubt) then be made precedents to prejudice themselves, their fellowes, and their posterities, by purchasing such licenses. Licentia sumus deteriores omnes. Wee should so be in as bad or worse case then confined popish recusants.

GENT:

Sir, I can hardly believe yourself to have been one of that number: I have ever heretofore observed your course, rather to live warilie within compasse of the lawe, then to transgresse and depend on a pardon.

KNIGHT:

It's everie wise man's parte so to doe. I endeavor my selfe to doe it, but I confesse that many times I fall shorte of it. For though it be properlie spoken towards allmightie god, that Justus cadit septies in die; yet the same may without wresling, be verified betweene subjects and their soveraigne. The best must often cry peccavi, and sing miserere. Noe man's coate is so sound but that a hole may be spied in it if it be looked upon with linceus eyes. So be it in such cases as this wherein I have instanced before, I suppose he should have done injurie to the uprightness and sinceritie of so good a king, who would have doubted of his indulgence towards any his true loyall subjects, which should have held their residences with and under thos modifications before specified. You have my opinion, by the which you may conjecture what was likelie to have been my resolution. Much more might be spoken upon this argument, but that appertayneth to other places and persons, and this litle which I have saide is more than I intended to speake off, but that I was drawen into it by your provocation.

GENT:

Well (worthy sir) I see my over busie interrogating hath ledd you into this digression in the verie begining, for the which I praie you let my rudenes plead my excuse and obtain pardon. I moved some questions and out of iggnorance have enforced upon you the occasion of this by-talke, whereof it repenteth me not (unles it be that I have given you offence by pressing too much upon your patience) for your discourse hath enlightened my understanding, by the helpe whereof I shalbe the better able to regulate my speach and actions in cases of the like nature. And nowe (sir) in a worde I pray you be pleased to understand that my coming hither is partlie to congratulat (with others) your return, and partlie to desire conference with you - about some things in which I would gladly receave satifaction. Wherein, as I am perswaded of your habilitie; soe the interest I have in your love, assures me of your willingnes to resolve mee.

KNIGHT:

Your questions have noe way been displeasing to me, and if in my answers you have found contentment, I am thereof right glad. Nowe tell me I praie you what is it wherein you expect by me to be satisfied? Assure yourself I shall not be wanting with the lawes of true frendshipp.

GENT:

I verie heartilie thank you, and doe herein freelie recognize the ingenuitie of your disposition, that not withstanding the diversitie of our judgments in matters of faith and religion, (which according to our saviours prediction sits parents and children, brothers and sisters at strife and variance) yet in civil conversation and offices of humanitie I have allwaies found your behaviour no lesse debonaire, nor your cariage lesse acceptable to me then any of thos that consent neerest with me in all points of beliefe. And in truth I am so much the more enforced to approve and commend this temperannce in you, by how much I finde it wanting in many of your side, whoe please themselves in nothing more then speaking ill of Catholiques, inveying2 bitterlie against us, and (as much as lyeth in them) urging the strickt execution of the penall lawes upon us. If they sought the health of our soules, they should forbeare afflicting us in our bodies lands and goods, knowing that mens consciences are not to be rigorouslie over-ruled with force, but gentlie drawen by persuasions.

KNIGHT:

You say verie well; And I would to god others of your profession did herein concurre with you in opinion and practize: then might the vapour of your complaint against us, be easilie blowen away with a breath. Wherein I appeale to the consciences and reports of all such moderat persons as have conversed among men of both religions, have likewise read their books, and are well acquainted with their practices; whether of the twayne speak and write with most asperitie and bitternesse, and governe with most rigour and violence. I deny not but there is fault on both sides, and I wish wee might all of us begin to amend, that the example of the one, might provoke the other to a charitable and christian emulation.

GENT:

Well then (good sir) though you were one of the parliament house at the last sitting in the late kings time, yet it seemes you were none of thos in the house that stirred so hotly against poore Catholiques; Such (as I have heard) who urged the making of more severe lawes against us, and earnestlie laboured for the execution of thos alreadie in force, but the the kings majestie shewed himselfe of a more gracious disposition towards us, and would not give waie to their passions; god rewards his soule for it.

KNIGHT:

No doubt but you have ben toulde some tales out of the parliament house, of matters which never came in it. As touching the making of newe lawes, there was small reason for the house to be much troubled therewith, with thos lawes alreadie in being, were by his majestie's grace and lenitie3 restrayned of their force and vigour. And albeit I am not in the minde to yeilde you an accompt4 of what was there uttered and argued by others, yet I will not stick with you in delivering my owne opinion; namelie that every man the more freelie he opened his heart in the house as his conscience moved him for the good of his soveraigne and the state, the more honest I judge him to be , and worthy the place he held; Howbeit that (perhapps) my selfe and others no lesse trulie devoted to the service of both, might dissent from them in their judgments. It is necessarie that soe great a bodie, should be possessed with diverse and different humours that the heat of the one might be allayed with the coldnes of the other, so to preserve the wholl in a just temper.

GENT:

Yea sir: But I praie you annswere me what good temper is there in the bodie when some of the members be scorched with heate, some kept shivering with cold? What moderation in that familie where some sonnes be made wantons and other their bretheren of the wholl bloud5 dealt withall as servants nay slaves? You knowe my meaning Durissima Seruitus est, ubi conscienta seruire cogitur.

KNIGHT:

I understand you well and could annswere you fullie but that I feare a full annswere would (in part) make emptie the closet of your heart of the former loving affection of yours manifested towards me, whereof I should be sorrie. An unpleasing thing it is to any man to have his old sores rubbed roughlie; I will therefore handle them as tenderly as I can. Shall I leave allegories and speake plaine english to you?

GENT:

Yes with all my heart, I have ever loved plaine dealing and plaine speaking, I praie use both to me.

KNIGHT:

(in the margin - The occasion of thye first statute- lawes made against thos of the Ro: Religion Ao j. Eliz: ca:2o.)
I will doe soe. First therefore I wish you to remember when and upon what ground the foundation of the lawes made against thos of your profession was layd. It was done within your memorie and you cannot be ignorant of it. The world knoweth that Queen Elizabeth of famous memorie began her raigne with great mildnes and moderation. For albeit shee restored the reformed religion and provided by parliamt for the uniformitie of Common Prayer, church service and administration of the Sacraments as it had ben before in the time of her brother Kinge Edward the 6. Yet were not thos of the Romane religion any waie afflicted in their persons or estats. Onelie such clericks who could not be reduced to conformitie, were made to forgoe their spirituall functions, (what should they doe with them?) And a locke set upon the lipps of them and others that should openly deprave and derogate from the publike liturgie established. (in the margin: - Ao 5. cap:jo ) After that when the Pope began to proceed with more violence against the queen, exciting forrein princes to invasion, and her owne subjects to rebellion, thundring his excomunications and exposing her person as a prize, and her estate for a prey to such as could seize it: Then for the preservation of her person her heires and successors, and the dignitie of the Emperiall Crowne of this Realme, and for avoyding such hurts perills and dishonours as beforehand fallen to her noble progenitors and thus6 wholl state by meanes of the usurped jurisdiction and power of the Sea of Rome, and of the dangers by the factors of the said usurped power at that time growen to marvaillous outrage and licentious bouldnes, requiring a more sharpe restraint and correction of lawes then formerly had ben used, Shee was enforced to proceed a stepp further for curbing the unbridled insolencie of audacious and turbulent persons, and conteyning her subjects in their due and naturall obedience. And consequently in the succeeding times of her raigne, as newe practizes and attempts sprang up against her person and state, so was shee by the Comon and great Counsell of her realme with good reason advised and urged to make provision by newe lawes against such newe and strang designes. Could any free prince (think you) provoked and exasperated as shee was, doe lesse then shee did against the children of that holie father, who with such furie and violence laboured the disinheriting and murthering of her? If you be disposed to run over the wholl course of her happie and peaceable government, so to informe yourself what lawes after this from time to time were enacted against men of your side, I praie you observe withall (in the margin: - Ao 23.ca:1o) the preambles prefixed to every of thos statutes and they (in the margin: - Ao 27.ca:1o) maie give any reasonable man full satisfaction, that a free (in the margin: - Ao 35.ca:2o) and absolute princesse bring in her conscience perswaded of the truth of that religion which shee mainteyned and with extreame perill of her life and state pressed, could doe noelesse then shee did for the defence of both, especiallie moved withthe humble suite of her most dutifull and loving subjects assembled in the Comon Counsell representing the wholl bodie of the kingdom.

GENT:

Why sir, by this your last longe speach, you seem unto me of another minde then heretofore you made shewe off, and then I tooke you to be. First in that you not onely defend and justifie all the lawes and persecutions thereby inflicted upon poore catholiques in Queene Elizabeths time, but alsoe by implication at least, (if not expresslie) doe maintaine and approve the same still.

KNIGHT: Trulie (my frend) as for the first I confesse I must either justifie the lawes or falsifie my owne fidelitie to my Prince and Countrie. Nay I presume if your selfe will laye aside affection and by the rule of reason judge impartiallie; If you consider the lawes together with their grounds and causes, you cannot in reason condemne them. If thos causes had not preceeded, the effects had never followed. The blame light upon their heads that first plotted ( and contynued plotting) mischiefe against the Prince and State, and blewe the coales to set on fire their neighboures howses, which soone tooke hould upon their owne. All thos persecutions ( as you call them) against catholiques, I do not so absolutely justifie, as the lawes themselves. For there might be, and it is like enoughe there was somtimes too much violence used in prosecution, and rigour in execution. Malice may be a good accuser, but no good judge. Would to god the affronts had never ben offred, that the remedies need not have ben provided. Sed facilius est fumum accendere, quam flamam extinguere. Howe I maintaine (in my opinion and judgement) the strickt execution of thos lawes which you call persecution, I have not tould you as yet. But I say still and am confident herein that the lawes were made upon just and urgent causes; And untill the Kings Majesty and the State may be well assured that the cause is absolutelie removed, they have small reason ( in my understanding) to take awaie causatum. Sublata causa, tollitur effectus: remanente causa, maneat effectus.

GENT:

Alas sir you are an uncharitable judge, whoe will have the children to beare the iniquitie of the fathers; and because they have eaten sower grapes, therefore our teeth must still be set on edge.

KNIGHT:

You vouch sacred text that would require a more large and copious exposition then in this our brief conference is fit to be insisted upon. It is no strang thing, nor repugnant to the lawes of best governed kingdomes and Comon-weales, for children in some cases, yea and childrens children to the last of the posteritie, to suffer for the transgression of their parents and anncestors. But you Romane Catholiques are out of that case. For unlesse yourselves in person be delinquents, I perceave not that you are any way prejudiced by the lawes

GENT:

True it is. Soe as wee will joyne in communion with your church, pertake in your hereticall Service and Sacraments, and shake off the religion of our forefathers, then need wee not say gramercy to be exempted from your penall lawes made against us. We shall have as much favour as that with the great Turke; if wee would renounce our Saviour Christ, and become Musulmans.

KNIGHT:

Your comparison is in it selfe odious; yetI hope you hould a better opinion of us and our religion, then of Turks and their Mahometisme, howsoever you are disposed to speake so uncharitablie nowe. Harsh comparisons may sometimes receave favourable construction. I have often heard men make resemblance between the Divell and the fryer, yet they will take the one as a fellowe christian and defie the other as a damned fiend.

GENT:

Well (good sir) leaving the Divell and the Turk together and the honest fryer with me (if you please) I desire you to satisfie me in one thing. Whether you thinke it agreeable to reason or conscience, that the moderat Catholiques of this time, being absolutelie (I omit the odiousnes of comparison 'twixt you and them) his majesties true faithfull obedient and loyall subjects readie in his service; Whether (I saye) it be meet that catholiques so qualified; for not frequenting your church-service or for using the service allowed by their Mother Church of Rome, should suffer as they doe in their bodies, lands and goods; I praie you make me a direct annswer to this question.

KNIGHT:

My answer surelie shall not be indirect; yet can it not be such as I thinke you intend heer by the worde direct, namelie by annswering you in a word with yea or nay Ambigua sunt distinguenda I must first use some explanation, and then will I give you a verie direct solution to your demand. Wee must consider distinctly twoe things, the lawes and the execution of them. Touching the first (as I have sufficiently proved before) they were originallie necessarie, reasonable, just and equall, and I cannot as yet find out howe or when they lost that their originall Justice or equitie; It lyeth not simplie in the power of the King to abolish them. Hee is indeed the sole moderator of them and may at his good pleasure dis pence with the execution, either in part or in wholl; Towards some offenders or towards all; and for such time as to him in his princelie wisdome shall seeme meet and convenyent. Thus have you my direct annswer to your question, that the lawes abiding in force as they doe, it is most agreeable both to reason and conscience, the delinquents should (as for the mulcts7 and penalties) lye prostrat at the footstool of his majestie's mercie.

GENT:

I perceave by your meaning verie well. You speake indeed like a pure parliament man. I had rather ( if I were allowed my choise) put my selfe and all to the kings mercie, then to theirs. But sir, will you yet resolve me one question and I shall trouble you no more upon this point. Howe would you advise his majestie to deale with us if hee were pleased to make tryall of you? Nay I beseech you stagger not at the matter, but deale freelie with me.

KNIGHT:

This supposition of yours is both captious and frivolous; and herein I must entreat you to accept of silence for my answer at this time. When that demand shalbe made unto me, either by persons or in place where and with whome my resolution may seeme to availe anything, I will not then spare to speake my minde. Meane while, my love to you enforceth me to advise you that you acknowledg the justice and equitie of the lawes ab origine, and untill your conscience may be satisfied and you persuaded to conformitie (as I hope in time you wilbe) so you in all things as becometh a good subject, and so you may conceave the better hope to have the kinge your gratious soveraigne. Ther was a time amonge us , even since we fell to difference in religion, that we all concurred alike in loyaltie to our soveraigne, then were men free from the pressures nowe complayned off. If wee would returne to the integritie of our ancient fidelitie, it is like the lawes should be, (if not abolished yet) restrained of their rigour and severitie.

GENT:

You feed us with faire words Sir, but with small apparannce of good hopes. For have not the Catholiques in the late king's time, for many years together shewed themselves as faithfull trustie and dutifull to him as thos of your profession? Yet our fidelitie hath not freed us from the mulcts and penalties.

KNIGHT:

You would perswade us that the purifying flames of your purgatorie fier must have a long time to expiat veniall sinns. I leave to you the application. For my part I will neither aggravat, nor somuch as mention old faults; neither will I extenuat the merit of your late amends: Let the one be cleane buried in perpetuall oblivion, the other receave their due commendation. Accepti beneficy recognitio, novi est acquitio. You ought to acknowledg our deceased king's indulgence and grace towards you ( the Christian worlde tooke notice of it). The lawes of the land lay heavy upon you, hee of his goodnes eased you. Farr otherwise it fared with the professors of our religion in the daies of queen Mary, and of later time in forrein parts, where having lawes and publique Edicts to protect them, these were used as a nett to entangle them, and a knife to butcher them. Marrie the actors in thos tragedies had a warrannt for it from their fathers, fides non est servanda cum hereticis. That Canon was an heresie in primative times, but made a Catholique maxime by the fathers in the Counsell of Constance and receaved by them of Trent who there captiouslie limited their salfe conduct offered to the protestants with this restriction, quantum in ipsis est reserving libertie to do by this as their predecessors had done by Iobn Husse.

GENT:

I cannot but marvaill at the men of your side (and at you among the rest) many of them having onelie heard of the name of Trent, (much lesse knowe what was done there) yet they must needs have a fling at the fathers there assembled and that venerable Counsell; wherein you and they may rightlie be resembled to little children, whoe passing by a tall sturdie oake that stands on a crosse way, will ever be striking at it with their staff or heaving at it with their shoulder as if they could beat or push it downe; whereas they should rather repose and rest them under the shadowe of it, there to secure themselves from the violence of the sunnes scorching heat or the furie of the tempestuous showers and stormes, for which intent and purpose the tree was there at first planted; and to the like end, the fathers in that holie Counsell were assembled.

KNIGHT:

Soe nowe I find the old saying true, that one question begets another, and one answere drawes on another. I thought our discourse on this subject had ben at an end. But in that you have offered a newe occasion of dispute, give me leave to lay hould upon it and to reply unto you in fewe wordes. I confesse that stoute sturdie oake of yours is too stronglie guarded and artificiallie underpropped (I may not say soundlie mored) for me or an hoste of men to overturne it. The triple crowned Byshopp and the great Princes of the Earth, bend all their joint power and strength to uphold it; Otherwise it had long since ben hewen downe by a small troupe of god's True Souldiers, with the sharpe two-edged sword of the worde, or blowen up by the root with the powerful breath of their mouthes. Let us speake without parable in plaine termes of that famous Counsell. I acknowledg as in your allegorie you implie that upon occasion of the devision then risen in the church, the emperor Charles the 5 of famous memorie, and other Christian Princes instantlie pressed the Pope for sommoning of a Councell, which with much difficultie was obtayned. The intent and butt aymed at was Reformation, and that chieflie in the Pope and his courte. (where it most needed). Reparation and Restitution of Royall and of Episcopall authoritie and jurisdiction, usurped by the byshopp of Rome and reuniting of Christian people then miserablie distracted by division and Schisme. Butwhat followed of it? (In the margin: The intent and purpose of the emperor Charles 5 and other christian kings and princes in urging the Pope to call the counsell of Trent. And what followed thereof.) Noe reformation in the courte of Rome (they could not endure to heare of that) the priviledges of princes trenched upon by the Pope were rather more captivated to his holines then any way restored to their anncient dignitie; Restauration of Episcopall authoritie whereon the Pope likewise had encroached, in vaine by the bishopps required; The virtue and concord among christian people in noe sort provided for; Nay more pittifullie rent assunder and broken, in somuch that the christian world over since, to the grief of all good men, hath felt the smart thereof, And so is yet like to doe, unlesse god of his goodnes provide a remedie in time, by inspiring the hearts of kings and princes with the spirit of peace, unitie and concord, with which peaceable spirit the Pope and the newe stirring factors for his visible monarchie, have never yet given probable testimony that they were or are possessed.

GENT:

What meane you sir, somuch to forget yourselfe by taxing that holie Counsell as if it had ben the cause of all the troubles and tragedies ever since raised up in christendom? Surelie you cannot but sinne against your owne conscience in so saying; for you knowe it to be otherwise. Was it not the obstinacy of the heretikes, who would never submit themselves to the decrees of the councell?

KNIGHT:

Nay verily, but it was the pride and ambition of the Pope, his Cardinalls and Courtiers, who gave litle or no proof that they aymed at the wyning of their christian bretheren, gayning them by the true meanes of instruction and perswasion, (which onelie have power over the conscience) By hearing them before they condemned them, or by yielding the least jot to the reformation of that which all good men sawe and acknowledged to be amisse in the ecclesiasticall state; nay moreover in certaine differences or points which were meerlie de iure humano et positivo, as forbidding the mariage of priests, comunicating in both kinds and some others, wherein the emperor and other christian kings and princes mediated his holines (who assumeth therein as in most thins ells , plenam potestatem solvendi et ligandi) he would not in minimis de suo jure discedere; And would you knowe the maine reason why? (in the margin: What moved the Pope to deny the mariage of priests: And the cupp to the laitie) Forsooth by yielding to the first, he should have lost the interest that he hath in clergie men and their goods, which nowe are all his, but upon their mariage, must of necessitie fall to their wives and children, so should the ecclesiastick hierarchie stand in danger of dissolution and the Sea Apostolike be drawen dry. And by granting the later, a dangerous consequence had followed, namelie that the laitie therein should have ben equalized to the clergie, and the holie order growe disesteemed. Give the heretiques an inch said some of his favorites, and they will take an elle. Loe by what meanes the Romane clergie lift themselves above the laitie. Whereas their learning, gravitie, integritie of life joyned with holesome doctrine, ought to be the true badges of their calling, and make them venerable in the eyes and hearts of the people. But it is cleare that whatsoever comes once into their hands, is in mortua manu they will never forgoe their hould. Let me entreat you with patience to observe yet in one circumstance the cariage of the fathers in that counsell. The great Apostle St Paul was himselfe contented and taught others that the strong ought to beare with the infirmitie of the weake in things indifferent. I presume you will say the fathers of Trent were the stronge christians, and their bretheren that sought reformation were the weaker. (in the margin: The uncharitablenes of the Trent fathers to the protestants) Had they any regard at all to their infirmities? Did they affoord them any free hearing or speaking in the Counsell for their satisfaction? Did they yeild to their infirmitie in any of thos things, wherein they might, and by the rule of Christian Charitie they ought? I cannot read that they did; But on the contrarie pressed upon their consciences in all things. The greatest divines doe agree that there be many theologicall questions nowe aggitated in Schooles, which it had ben good for the church if they had never ben mentioned, They were such wherein Christians at the first broaching of them, might have held the affirmative or negative without danger to their soules or consciences, untill it pleased the church to define the question one way or other. There is no doubt but that some such fell under the deliberation and decision of the Trent -fathers, wherein if they had regarded the peace of the church and the wynning of their weake bretheren, they might have left such questions at large undefined. But whatsoever tended to crosse the reformers was punctuallie decided, ad oppositu: and to cutt off all hope of reconciliation and reunion, unles wee will subscribe to all points defended in the church of Rome, (though some of them were but latelie receaved of themselves) they make all points of faith fundamentall, even prayer to and for the dead, purgatorie, Saint-worshipp, and Image-worshipp, no lesse then the belief of the blessed Trinitie, the distinction of the persons, the birth, passion, and resurrection of our saviour Christ. As if a christian failing in any one of thos formes, and so dying, were forever deprived of heaven to be eternallie tormented with divells. This is harsh divinitie. Yet some of them can write that a Pope could fetch out of hell a Romane* (in margin:*Traianus) emperor being a heathen, who never believed one article of the Christen creed, but oppugned8 the wholl. They could proceed more temperatlie in some questions controverted between their fryers; and namelie among others, in that which was and still is defended pro et contra with great violence by their Dominicans and Franciscans touching the blessed virgin, whether shee were conceaved in originall sinne or not. That high point they left undefined, to content the fryers of both sides, ells must one side have yeilded to the other or gone to hell among obstinat heretikes. For why? If the fathers had once determined this needles and fruitles question, in the negative, it had ben altogether as damnable from that time forwards to have held the affirmative, ( which nowe the Dominicans doe maintaine) as to deny the Holie Trinitie, or any of the most maine part of our Christian creed, a strange paradox to my understanding. Nowe I pray you judg uprightlie upon due consideration of thes fewe circumstances, howe cold the fathers were in their charitie towards their weake bretheren, and howe small regard they had to the peace of the Church and Christian commonweale, being the end by you acknowledged wherefore they were assembled.

GENT:

By your good favour Sir, if I be scrupulous to yield assent to all that you tell me heer, touching the holie Counsell of Trent, you must beare with me. I am not well seene in the acts of that counsell, nor will I relye upon my owne skill and understanding in such matters: When I shall haveconferred with some learned men of my side, and receaved their instructions, I shall then be ready for you. In the meane while, because you seemed latelie to lay an imputation upon us for the broiles and troubles of Christendome, I will take hould of you there, and praie you set the sadle upon the right horse. Let us passe over older times and looke to the present. You might verie well have spared that speach of yours, and so perhapps in silence have avoyded the scandall that must of necessitie fall upon you and your associates, (I meane the Parlament men) for disturbing the universall tranquillitie of Christendome, which our late renowned King James justly stiled Pacificus, with a most ardent zeale and Christian pietie embraced, and with infinite expence of his Treasure - laboured to maintaine; Untill that you, I knowe not with what spirit of unquietnes stirred up, loathing the sweet name of peace, engaged his majestie in a most dangerous and chargeable warre, with the mightiest Monarche of Europe, so setting the Christian world in combustion, whereupon is like to ensue the effusion of much innocent Christian bloud5, for the which it is to be feared you shall annswere heavylie at the day of judgment.

KNIGHT:

You are not the first by a score at the least of your bretheren, out of whos mouthes my eares have ben buzed into with the like charmes. And albeit the most of them receaved from me satisfaction, yet the next of your side I happened to discourse withall of such matters, (as I doe with many) offereth me the same nut to crack and thinks verelie it will spoile my teeth in the breaking. As you have heard me hitherto with patience, so I crave the like favour of you still: Then shall ye find that you are in an error, and thorough mistaking have wronged me and others against your will. You unadvisedly charge the house, with I wot not what spirit of frenzie, in disturbing the peace of Christendome, and engaging the late Kinge our master in a dangerous and chargeable warre, for the which you would affright us, with a heavy judgment at the last daie. Will you acknowledg your owne errour, acquit us of the imputation, and free us from that heavydoome, if I make it appeare unto you, that wee did not engage the Kinge in warre with Spaine, (I take it he lived and dyed in peace with it) Nor moved him unto it. And surelie for my part, I doe not remember that his majestie in whome was the absolute power of peace and warre, referred somuch unto us; if he had, I cannot tell you what wee should have done; Though I am confident that honourable assemblie would sufficiently have justified their doings if they had proceeded so farr, his majestie referring it unto them.

GENT:

I willinglie accept your offer. For you can never be able to acquit yourselves of that, which all men generallie lay upon you; I thought you would noy have offered to deny it.

KNIGHT:

Yes, with much better assurance then you have to affirme it. (in the margin: - The proceedings in Parliament mistaken generallie by the Romanists) I will not offer you satisfaction with unwritten traditions; Neither must you ground your accusation upon flying reports from one head to another. The verie act of parlament which geveth to his majestie three entire subsedies, conteyneth in the preamble thereof what soever can justly be alleadged PRO and CONTRA in this dispute. There it doth appeare that his majestie had ben pleased to referr himselfe to be advised by the house, whither he should contynue or break off the twoe treaties of the mariage with Spaine and the restitution of the Palatinat; Wherein the house humblie entreated his majestie to dissolve them both. And heer would I aske any indifferent man, what reason, nay what collour or shewe of reason had the house to advise the king to contynue them? Did it not evidently appere that the match was as good as alreadie broken, ere ever the referrence came to the house? For my part unles it had ben so, I thinke wee had never ben troubled with it. I presume that the illustrious Prince (our nowe dread Soveraigne) having resided so long in the Court of Spain, had dived deep, if not to the bottom, yet to the middest of their profoundest plotts and projects, and found what they were, and whereto they tended. Many of them that speake favourablie of the Spanish side, stick not to make doubt, whither ab initio they intended the match reallie and bona fide. Others doe absolutelie hould the negative. But after that the Prince with extraordinarie example and unparalelled precedent of magnanimitie and sinceritie of affection, had presented his person to the Ladie Infanta in her courte, it put them to a further straine of their witts. Then, (on gods name, if it were on gods name) must the Pope come upon us with a cast of his pastorall office to clogg the dispensation with heavyer waight, and fasten it to St Peters chayer9 with stronger links. They would have fettered our kinge and his realmes in goulden chaynes; As lief they had ben hammered of Spanish iron, the bondage being equall under the one, and the other. I praie understand the buisines right. The parlament never advised the kinge to a Warre with Spaine ( note well the words of the acte) But for as much as by meanes of the breach of thos treaties, it might happen his majestie to be engaged in a sodaine10 warre; Then for the maintayning of that warre which might ensue, and more particularly for defence of his majesties realme of England, securing the kingdome of Ireland, assisting his neighboures the states of the United Provinces, and others his friends and allyes, and the settinge furth of his Royall Navy, the house humblie offered to his most excellent majestie thos three subsedies. I hope you will make a great difference betwixt engaging one into a warre, and providing against a warre that happilie may fall upon him? Wee have yet seene noe warre broken out which in brief is a full annswere to your objection.
To returne againe to the Treaties, I say, that by that litle experience which in my time I have seene, observed, and knowe of the Popes and Spanish pretences and practizes, I am constrained to be fullie resolved, not withstanding what soever glozes11 and florishes, that wee nor others of our profession may expect from them any free or unconstrained conditions, upon Treaties, but such as shall tend evidently to the supplanting of the Religion, and advanncement of their owne ends. I could entreat you looke back to the treatie that Queen Elizabeth by her comissioners had with the Prince of Parma, before the Spanish attempt for conquest in 88. Some of ours were then ledd into a fooles paradise by their faire promises, which might have turned to the great prejudice of the Realme, But that the Queene and her counseile by their wisedome and circumspection prevented it. But passing over old precedents, call to mind howe of late wee were deluded with a vaine hope of restoring the Palatinat: Before it came whollie into their possession, even in the heat of fairest treating, they contynued Conquering. Having once gotten it, then (forsooth) it stood like Primero at three hands, The Pope, the Emperour, and the Duke of Bavaria being the gamesters, The Spaniard (if ye will believe him) was but a looker on, or carde- houlder; yet he would doe his best to obtaine a restitution, for his love and affection to the King of Great Brittaine, (whos cariage inded had deserved as good a thing as that) and albeit at the last, when the case grewe desperat, and all hopes of restitution deluded, when they sawe the Treatie of the match absolutelie dissolved, Then is the parlament accused rashlie to have rejected the offer of the Palatinat; which doubtles, if wee give heed to some mens insinuations, in five moneths after wee should have ben sure off. The King of Spain would have sent it home to us in Count Gondimar's pocket. Perhapps he might have brought us a mappe of it, and that had ben all.

GENT:

Remember yourselfe (good sir) and of whome you speake. The Catholique Kinge is a great monarche, so firme in his royall word and promise, that noe temperat man of understanding, much lesse yourselfe, whome I ever observed to have thought and spoken reverently of Christian Kinges, would doubt of his performance in any thing that he should promise.

KNIGHT:

I have not ben so ill bredd as to think or speake otherwise then becometh me of kinges and princes christened. Neither doe I make doubt nor ever did, but that his Catholique Majestie if he had passed his absolute promise, would absolutely have performed and made it good. The doubt resteth in this - whether he would have promised it, or noe. Cor Regis inscrutabile. It were follie nowe to divine what he would have done; and I may with as good reason be suspitious, as some others presume to be confident in it.

GENT:

Thus betweene twoe stooles, you knowe whose hard happ12, it was to sit on the ground.

KNIGHT:

You expresse it aptly. For had the right stoole benlayd hould on at first, the good man of the house might have sate yet in his due place. Nowe I praie you be contented, that I may question you a little, as you have long done to me. What say you, would you wish him that hath lost his stoole, and nowe sits on the ground, sit there still? Or doe you wish him reestablished in his seate againe?

GENT:

By my troth sir, if it lay in my power, I would lift him upp againe; And to the best of my small abilitie I will not faile to assist him therein, when the time shall serve. For I tell you nowe in good earnest, howsoever I stand affected in my religion, it grieves my heart to see my Royall Masters onely deere sister, and princely issue, sojorne as strangers in a forrein land.

KNIGHT:

You provoke me to embrace you with a more fervent affection then before, in that I perceave you retaine still a true English heart, though your conscience incline to Rome. And I persuade myselfe there be many more of the old stampt Romane Catholiques of your mind. I mistrust none but thos of the newe Ignatian edition. Well then (my good neighbour and friend) though you desire and would be assisting to recover againe the Palatinat vijs, medys et modis, directe or oblique, yet I suppose you see small hope of it.

GENT:

In faith sir, I am neither martialist nor machiavellist, I have litle skill in State or Stratagems, yet have I often conversed with men of thos professions; And have heard some of them by way of argument mentaine, that all Christian Princes united, might easilie drive the Turke out of Europe; And somwhat easier then that, I ghesse a fewe of them will united, may be able to effect the redelivery of the Palatinat. Howe thinke you?

KNIGHT:

I am sure you knowe already what I wish; 'Twere bootles13 for me to tell you what I think. Howbeit might I once heare of that desired Union settled, I should live in hope to see some good thereby effected. Till then, for you and me to talke about it, were onely to build castles in the ayre: And if some of your Jesuited Romanists, or others of the Spanish faction were in a corner to heare us, they would goe neer to laughe us out of our coats.

GENT:

But good sir, sith14 that you and I are sure, there be no such fellowes neere about us; And in that your verie countenance bewrayeth15 in you an earnestnes to discourse somewhat upon this subject, I entreat you give free passage to your owne humour, and make me partaker of your cogitations. For in sooth to deale openly with you, I am no lesse disposed to heare then I finde you willing to speake thereof.

KNIGHT:

I were full of incivilitie if I should deny you so friendly and pleasing a motion. For I confesse ingeniouslie to you, though I hould the place of a privat person in the Comonwealth, and doe containe my selfe gladly within the bounds of my calling, not intruding into buisinesses of high nature above my reach; Yet I protest unto you, my head is often plodding, and my heart meditating on the State of the Palatinat; Therefore ex abundantia cordis loquetur os meum. When wee are entered into the conference, I shall make you partaker of my conceipts and consultations. But yet because wee have contynued long in talke already, and falling upon a newe matter may happen to forget ourselves and growe feeble with over long fastinge, wee will even nowe (if it like you) sit downe and refresh us a litle with a short dinner, that wee may the better endure to spend the afternoon in this conference.

GENT:

You make a verie good and seasonable motion, and I thank you for it. For the truth is, I came from my home this morning fastinge, yet your pleasing talke hath so fedd me, that I felt no hunger till I heard you speake of eating; But nowe finding my stomake on a sodein10 sharp sett, I praie you Sir, call for the meate and you shall soone see howe ready I am for it.

The End of The Fore-noones Discourse

---

The After-noones Discourse

GENT:

Nowe, gentle sir, that you plentifullie have satisfied my hungrie appetite with your frendly fare, and liberall diet; And that wee have recreated and refreshed our fainting spirits, with pleasing familiar table-talke to my full contentment, I presume to call upon you for proceeding in this afternoones conference, as formerlie you intended. Wherein you shall cause me to listen unto you with the more attention, and render to you the heartier thanks in the end, if you wilbe pleased to forbeare falling upon points of faith and religion unlesse the necessarie dependance of ecclesiasticall and civill relations one upon the other, enforce you to it; Not that I am altogether averse for lending my ears to temporat disputes on points of faith, but for avoyding tediousnes and confusion in handling together things that be Heterogenea and would require distinction in the handling.

KNIGHT:

I doe very well like of your motion: You require of me but that whereto I was of myselfe before whollie inclyned; for believe me on my honest word, in this my intended ensuing discourse, I shall forbeare as much as I may to shewe my selfe a divine. But according to my slender capacitie in points of pollicie and state, grounded upon Comon Reason, Experience and Positions or Maximes taken from the writings of wise and learned men, I will freelie deliver unto you what is in my mind. Thus then to begin. I cannot without grief of heart call to my remembrance the sweet rest and peace that Christendome enjoyed of late years, before the troubles began in Germany and Boheme and the miseries which those countries by the meanes thereof have endured since; But yet the calamities nowe threatening the rest of Christendome, and the dangerous consequence thereof like to followe, moveth me much more. Videntur enim haec tantumodo preludia tragaediarum subsequentium. (in the margin: The miserie of servitude or bondage: the sweetnes of liberty and freedome) There is nothing more odious and loathsome to the nature of ingenious and free-borne people, then subjection and servitude. Not that subjection which they owe to their owne naturall liege lords kings and Princes, or to their superiours in states and comonwealthes, under whome to live in obedience, enjoying the benefit of anntient16 immunities priviledges and customes, is indeed the onelie true libertie; But for men to see or foresee the ruine or desolation of their native countrie, their kings and freeprinces despoiled of their hereditary dominions by strangers, their nobilitie rooted out, bannished or killed, the comon people with every kinde of slavery oppressed, all anncient lawes and priviledges violated, altered and infringed; Newe lords prescribing to the conquered their newe lawes, and dominiering over their bodies and consciences at their pleasure, this is of all miseries the most miserable; And men that have judgement to discerne betwext the one and the other, will surelie strive to eschewe the one, and to preserve and maintain the other, with voluntarie profusion of their goods and lands, and free effusion of their bloud, even to the last dropp. Knowing it to be much better by a quick naturall death to put an end to miseries, which otherwise would be endlesse; Rather then by a wretched languishing life (which may aptlie be called a contynuall dying) to be made the base subject of shame and slaverie.

GENT:

Meethinks (sir) I discover in this your last speach more expression of fervour and passion, then in all that you have spoken before, I agree with you in the generall that nothing is more sweet then libertie, nor more distastfull to the nature of man then bondage and slaverie. I should choose rather quickly to dye a free man, then to attaine the years of Nestor living in servitude. And so I suppose you shall find none free and generous spirited, but they are of the same mind; Yet tell me I pray you, to what speciall end and purpose have you pitched upon that comon place? Wee in this kingdome (god be thanked) live as free as any people in the Christian world under most mild and gracious government, what makes you talke or once thinke of servitude?

KNIGHT:

I tell you, the singular advantage the wee the people of Great Brittaine for many years together have had, and yet doe enjoye above most of the nations round about us, in our corporall and spirituall freedome under most gracious Soveraignes, should stirre us up with all thankfullnes to acknowledge therein, first the goodnes of allmightie God, next the pietie of our kings and princes, and for expression of our thankfullnes, to manifest our readines and alacritie in encouraging and assistinge them for the maintainance of their dignitie, as alsoe for the anncient reputation, honour and libertie, of our nation, against all the affronts of forreiners whatsoever, that doe maligne and prattize17 to undermyne the same.

GENT: H

ereby sir I understand well what your meaning is, and whereto your speach tendeth. You seeme to implie that wee have some potent enemyes abroad, whoe, envying our prosperitie, would be glad to see it abated, and (if they knewe howe) would raise themselves by our fall, against whose pretences you wish us to be provided, and withhall forwardnes to be assisting to our Superiours in that buisines. I confesse you there a good mind to your countrie, but(as I take it) 'tis with a preposterous zeale. What need you and I buisie our heads about such matters? They are too high for us, let leave the care thereof to the king and his Counsell, whos wisedome needeth noe supplie of advice from such men as wee bee.

KNIGHT:

I assent to your conclusion, yet can acknowledge no such preposterousnes of zeale as you apprehend. For you and I discoursing as wee doe heer in privat, thoughe of publique and state affaires, no man wilbe so rash from thence to inferre that wee take upon us or presume to teach and direct our Superiours. Wee may be noted to expresse either to affoord some contentment to ourselves in the conceipted assurance thereof. I hope that is neither preposterous nor presumptuous.

GENT:

You have annswered right well. Proceed sir nowe I praie you, and declare to me in the next place what reason and warrant you have to thinke, that any potentate or prince either thorough hatred ambition, or upon any other pretext should seeke to supplant this state, and to entertaine idle hopes of prevailing against it?

KNIGHT:

Heer nowe you present unto me a large field of matter to dilate upon; the choise is difficult where to begin, and I think the laboure wilbe no lesse to find a cleare way out, being once entred in. The arguments moving me are drawen from twoe heads, the one Generall, the other Particular. And first, as for the universall inclination of man to covet and aspire, I will make (in the margin: The generall inclination of man to aspire) tryall of your judgment by a question. You are an aged man, and in your time have seene and observed much. Tell me howe many of your good neighboures have you knowne in your daies, from the poorest cotager to the greatest possessioner who lived so absolutelie satisfied with what hee had, as that he never wished nor endevoured to get more.

GENT:

You have spurred me a question and I will whipp you out an annswere. I do not remember to have knowne but one of that mind, he was a gent of a good estate, and well descended, and I tooke him for an honest man; But all the great ones in that countrie, accompted him as a sillie fellowe, and some stuck not to say hee was a foole.

KNIGHT:

An adage there is, that one foole makes many. It doth not hould true in such a foole as you speake off; for I am of opinion, that that one foole made none. What man is so unexperienced in the practize of the world, or what scholler such a stranger in the books of philosophers, historians and other learned writers, but the one knoweth by proff18, the other hath learned by instruction, that the desires of men are bottomlesse, their appetites endlesse, their ambition boundlesse (in the margin: Appetite and ambition boundlesse) though it were trulie spoken by the poet in the particular of money (being one of the objects of mens appetites) Crescit amor numi, quantum ipsa pecunia crescit. Yet is it as fullie verefied in all the other species of things desiderable, that the more a man hath, the more he coveteth. Money, lands offices, dignities, countries, yea kingdomes; Non sufficit orbis. All the world is not enough to suffice the covetous, much lesse the ambitious. For of the twoe, (if they may be separated) I hould the later to be the most unlimited.

GENT:

I am partly perswaded that you teach sound doctrine, and that what you affirme is true. But can you yeild me some reasonable satisfaction why it should be soe?

KNIGHT:

It is held for a principle, therefore should be credited, not argued. And albeit you have dailie experience and Sages Positions to confirme it, yet will I endeavour to set downe some satisfactorie reason for it. Know then, if the appetite doe desire and long after his object, it cannot be quieted without the fruition of it, ells were appetitus sua natura irregularis, in desiring and then to be satisfied, without obtayning; Which to doe, were an act of solid reason, and not of appetite. Therefore it must still be habituallie affected and inclyned ad appetendum, otherwise it looseth the verie nature of appetite. Nowe part of any species is not an object proportionable to the extent of the appetite, but the species itselfe. As for example, let us instance in one or twoe particulars. (in the margin: two examples 1. of the covetous man.) The covetous person that desireth silver and gould, assure yourselfe it is not this or that individuum definitum (let it be vagum if you please) of thos mettalls, that equalizeth his greedy appetite; Although peradventure the man having scraped together many of thos individua, himselfe neer wearyed and cloyed with scraping, seemeth to set a period to his desire, the which in itselfe is and wilbe allwaies desiring more, never ceasing till it have the Divell and all. (in the margin: 2.of the ambitious.) Soe likewise the aspiring ambitious man hath for the object of his desire, Dominion and Imperie, not in pt (part), but in wholl. For the object must be sutable to the appetite. Therefore of itselfe, (if it be left to itselfe; not checkt or restrained by reason or grace) it is never absolutely satisfied till it get absolute possession of all which is in that kind desiderable. (desirable) Yet must you consider that it mounteth up to the height by degrees and stepps, not in an Instant, but one thing falleth in after another. Having attained to this highe mountaine, it must passe from thence to the next great river; Ther hence to the shore of the neighbouring ocean; And so round about to our overthwart neighboures the Antipodes. The spheare of this same stella ambulans is orbicularis, so is the motion not direct, but circularis, and that makes it endlesse. Neither ought you take this from me as a vaine and idle speculation, but for an infaible truth, wherof some people of Europe in this later age, (besides many precedents of the anncients) have geven us a plaine demonstration.

GENT:

Will you believe me sir, I knowe not howe to answere formallie unto you subtle argumentation, yet certenly before I yeild to your unpleasing proposition, I will doe with you as the collier did with the Devill, deny you conclusion. I can hardly be induced to acknowledge all men to be covetous or ambitious in that extent and latitude as you pretend. I protest sir, I knowe myselfe to be cleere from that vast crime, I live contented with my owne, I covet nothing of yours nor other mens, and therefore I knowe you doe me wronge; I freelie forgive you for my part; But as my good friend, I will be so bould to admonish you, that you beware howe you touch the honour of great persons, princes and states, as if all of them were aspiring and ambitiuous without limit, and did not prescribe and bounds to the vastnes of their desires. I would have you instantly to recant that heresie.

KNIGHT:

I am not so injurious to all men, much lesse to the sacred majestie of kings and princes as you conceit of me, only by your mistaking of my words, their right sense and meaning. I say plainley that if desire and appetite, be left to itselfe and suffred to have his free swing in men of any degree whatsoever, (yourselfe not excepted) it is altogether as exorbitant and unlimited as before I have tould you. The more comendable is the temper and moderation of thos who by the assistance of gods grace can and doe restraine and suppresse it in themselves, as alsoe endeavour to check and curbe it in others. Verbum sapienti sat. Howe think you in your conscience, can you acquit this proposition of heresie?

GENT:

In faith sir I must. You come upon me with your glosses and distinctions, when I think to take advantage of your speach, that it seemes to me your replies are retractations; but I must acknowledge the error to be in my misunderstanding, not in your mispeaking. Well sir, nowe that I understand your meaning right in your generall theorem, I praie you make some application to our present purpose; for otherwise my selfe am likely to mistake in doing it.

KNIGHT:

(In the margin: The use that is to be made of the former general position) Why, this construction may easilie be made of it, that seeing all men in generall without exception are naturallie coveting, aspiring, and ambitious, never so well satisfied with their owne, but that there lurketh within them a disposition, if not a settled habit, to cast a squint eye upon some thing of their neighboures, whichin their apprehension lyeth fit for them; it may serve in stead of an admonition to every provident man to look well unto his owne; But about all others, this advise is usefull to kings and princes more then to inferiours. For the inordinat desires of thes, are restrained and curbed not onlie with the feare of god and scruple of conscience, but also by authority of magistrates and power of the lawes under which they live: Soe is it not in thos others, who beinge absolute, and bound to render accompt of their doings to God alone, have only thos twoe first maine rubbs lying athwart them, which though they be not able to remove out of the way, yet they can lightly leape over them.

GENT:

Sir, I begin nowe to have some confused apprehension of your intent and scope. It seemes you would have a prince no lesse jealous of his estate, then any old man in the Royall Cittie is of his faire young wife. Is that your meaning?

KNIGHT:

Presuming your comparison doe not in any sort disparage dignitie which wee are to honour as a kinde of deitie (in the margin: Dixi dii estis) with some quallification annexed , I assent unto it. Abundans cautela non nocet; At ne quid nimis.

GENT:

Maie it please you to be your owne interpreter; This brief mottoes , require expositions which are fittest to proceed from yourselfe. I will begin to set you on worke with questioning you touching the particulars you have already spoken sufficiently in the generall. Of which one (I praie you) would you advise a prince to be jealous? Of his subjects? Or of his neighboures ? Of some? Or of all? (heer is indeed an intricate business)

KNIGHT:

Of the first very sparingly nor without manifest apparance of just cause. (But this branch sprowteth not from the roote I nowe intend to strike at) (in the margin: Of whom princes have most reason to be jealous . 1.-5.) Of the others more warilie; And among them , of (1)such principallie in whom there is most power and possibilitie to doe hurt. Of (2) such in whome the humour of ambition and desire of dominiering appereth to be most prevalent. Of (3) such against whos highe and aspiring designes, the warie jealous prince and his people have most opposed themselves, and ben to them a check. Of (4) such whoe may pretend quarrells in revenge of reall or imaginarie injuries receaved. To conclude, Of (5) him most watchfullie in whome all the foresaid motives may happen to meet together, or the more part of them. And that in a word, is the Spaniard. (1)First hee is the most potent in Christendome, everyman knowes that. (in the margin: Sundry joint causes of th spanish power and greatnes.) His dominions be many and great in Europe and Africke, besids the newe world from whenece he receaveth the chief sinewes of his strength silver, gold, pearle and other rich marchandize of inestimable value. His people through long practize in the militarie arte, (whereof they have as it were an academy) trayned and exercised in armes, encouraged with the due reward of their merits, good pay, great preferments and honorable places in the campe and ellswhere, which makes them good souldiers, patient in enduring, and valiant in execution, they are wise, politike and secreet in the cariage of their designes; Besids the maine assistance they have to their great advantage and the prejudice of others in all Christian countries ells, (especiallie in this kingdome, and the dominions of protestant princes) to wit, the Pope his nimble creatures, the Jesuites, and their hot spirited disciples, in whom this is observed among them of our nation, That (in the margin: The most zealous Papists be devoted to the Spanish more then to any other Catholique king or state.) generallie our most zealous papists expresse more good affection to the Catholique king and his nation, then to any other prince or people though of their owne profession. I knowe not whether it be soe in other countries. Every of thes helpe to make an addition to the Spanish greatnes. (2) Secondly no man is so iggnorant but knoweth ambition to be an unseparable companion unto highe and most powerfull soveraignitie. Assuetudo enim imperitandi, facit homines imperiosos. They that have longe and largelie ben accustomed to command, will expect everywhere to be obeyed; such be the Spaniards. Certenlie I cannot but hould him for a man extreame partiall on their side, and palpablie blinded with affection towards them, that doth not see and acknowledge the unlimitted vastnes of their ambition, which some of their favorites can cunningly hide and cover with the faire shadowe of just and lawfull title, as one of them in the time of Queen Elizabeth would have persuaded us that the then king of Spaine was the undoubted lawfull heire to this crowne and kingdome: And this fellowe may yet passe for a modest man in comparison of another newe herhalt19 of theirs, who pretends him by just and right title, to be true and lawfull heire to all the kingdomes of the world. If an investiture from the Byshopp of Rome will make all this good, he cannot misse of that either by favour or by some other meanes usuall upon like occasions in the court of Rome.
(in the margin: 3 & 4) And sith the world knoweth that noe nation in Christendome hath more stopped the course of their conquests, nor checked their insolencies in their haughtiest enterprizes against their Neighboures, then the English; This being taken by them for an extreame injurie and affront not to be endured, hath settled in them a deepe desire of revenge against us, how- soever that, to worke upon us with the more securitie, according to their naturall and habituall calliditie20, (wherein they be their crafty-masters) they can dissemble and carie it exceeding closelie.
(in the margin: 5) Lastly seeing it is irrefragablie21 demonstrated that every of the foresaid circumstances doe meet together in that nation; Howe ought wee especiallie above other our neighbour-kings and queens, with all possible circumspection and provident care, to have a jealous eye over them, and with courage and constant resolution to withstand them?

GENT:

Naie, good sir. Had it not ben much better thinke you to have made him our sure frend against all the world? Wee were once well onward in the way, and I am affraid wee went awrie when wee strayed out of that waye.

KNIGHT:

I delivered you my opinion already upon that point in the fore-noone, yet for your further information and helpe to your memorie, I tell you againe that himselfe together with the Bisopp of Rome, barricadoed up the way, so as by it wee could never have attained to our wished journeys end. As long as wee walked there, wee were ledd masking like one caryed about by the goblin in the night betwixt sleeping and waking, who when he cometh to himselfe, findeth that he is farr wide off the place where hee dreamed to be. What booteth it to talke of that which is past and gone? Let us cast our eyes and thoughts upon things present and to come. As the state of affaires nowe standeth and is like to contynue ( for ought I can see) the salfest waie for our securitie and defence is to keepe him off at the pikes end. Since the time of my remembrance, I never knewe him yet upon us, except it were by treaty and collusion. Our late soveraigne paid deerly and our newe lord and master adventured his person dangerouslie for their frendshipp. yet both of them failed by this meanes to obtaine it. What could they have done more to purchasse it?

GENT:

In good troth sir. To speake uprighlie without affection or partiallitie, I think they did as much and more then reasonably could have ben expected from them. Perhapps had they done lesse, they might have sped the better. Some great men have in them a quallitie of women (beelike they sucked it from their mothers) the more earnestly they be sined unto, the more willfullie they seeme to drawe backe. I dare be sworne the noble young ladie had no such humour in her. If any other (excepting our great masters and theirs) were the disturbers of it, heer in privat be twixt you and me, I beshrewe (turn awry) their harts for it.

KNIGHT:

But nowe that the breach is made, it cannot be repaired. Upon the accomplishment of that pretended match, depended our hope of the Palatinat. The first being vanished, the later is extinguished. What more would you have us doe?

GENT:

Sir, I tould you my mind to day in the morning, but my capacitie is too slender to comprehend the meanes of effecting it; Onely it being a great worke I think ther will need many heads and hands to bring it about, as I then tould you; If my memorie faile me not.

KNIGHT:

It is verie true your memorieserveth you well, wither had I forgotten it. For albeit you may thinke me to have digressed from the buisines of the Palatinat, with the entrie whereinto wee concluded our fore- noones conference; yet must you consider that this my wholl after-noones speach hitherto, hath ben but a necessarie preparation to the punctuall discourse of that subject. I have shewed you how potent and mightie a monarch the Spaniard is become (under which title must be understood the wholl howse of Austrich, who are a bodie most firmelie compact and united together. Another maine pillar to uphould their greatnes.) That with his power and greatnes, ther are coincident other properties and conditions making him formidable and his yoake unsupportable to his neighboures. (in the margin: Probable hopes of a union against the growing greatnes of ye Spaniard.) From the serious consideration whereof I have reason to collect and gather this Inference, that other great kings and free princes our allies and confederats moved with the generositie of their owne spirits, and the example of their noble ancestors, will and do already bethinke themselves of a way to stoppe the over-growing greatnes of this one member of the bodie of Christendome which assumeth or converteth into itself so many of the rest, that the wholl bodie at length wilbe but one member. They cannot choose but have a sensible feeling and true apprehension of the miserie of base servitude, and the contentment of sweet libertie, the chief of all worldly blessings. Whereupon wee may with reason expect and hope for that desired union, which shall either persuade or enforce the Spaniard to moderation and assure the neighboures in their ancient Estates and liberties. Have you not read in histories or heard by relation, when the great Emperour Charles the 5 was well forward on the way to the subjecting of all Germany under his scepter having taken and imprisoned the Duke of Saxonie and Lantgrave of Hesse, howe then the Pope himselfe (whoe by the hastie rising of the empire, feared his owne fall in temporalibus at least) entered into a league with the French king against the emperour. As likewise other the princes of Germany stuck closelie together in defence of their comon libertie?

GENT:

Why, sir, though I knowe that will, yet I cannot conceave that this small portion of one part of Christendome, I meane the Palatinat is a matter of such consequence, as that other kings, princes, and states should ymbroile themselves and their subjects in a dangerous and chargeable warre, with so puissant a monarch for the regayning thereof; Besides that, it litle concerneth them, but onely the king our master. Therefore though I heartilie wish it, I can hardlie believe it, till I see it done.

KNIGHT:

Whether it will take effect yea or nay, I can tell no more then you. Onelie I lay before you the probabilitie of my hopes in that behalfe. And for reply to your last speach, knowe ye that it hath not ben so strange a matter in former ages for valorous21 gentlemen, noble knights and famous princes to undertake actions of as great hazard as this, either to right their frends injured, or to reestablish other princes despoiled of their estats. A most excellent prince of this land did as much once for an anncestor of theirs, and many since that time have done the like ellswhere for others. But I list not to lengthen our discourse with particularizing on examples. And yet againe for a further annswere to you, I desire you to understand and consider, that this litle modicum of the Christian world, the Palatinat, is of greater consequence then you are well aware off. (in the margin: The Palatinat though a small state, yet of no small importance to the house of Austrich) It bringeth no small addition towards the building up of the Austrian monarchie, and assurance of the Imperiall dignitie to that familie. Together with it, some other parts of Germany are so weakened that they lie at the mercie of thos, who do but want fit opportunitie to seize and swallowe them. (for they must not chopp up all at once, least they discover the sharpnes of their stomaks). Naie more, if the Palatinat were of so litle esteeme as you conceipt23, or others tell you; What made them so loath to depart with it, upon the earnest mediation with faire and freindly offers o fthe late kinge oue master, the kinge of Demark and others? Yea rather then to forgoe their hould in that, they were contented to make a league for many yeares with the arch enemy of our Christian faithe, the Turke; And they could yeild to another neighbouring prince, the most advantageous conditions that he could reasonablie require, albeit he had done them more hurt damage and dishonour, spoiled their countries, burnt their villages and townes, captivated and killed their people, and otherwise exasperated them much more then the Elector Palatine had done. Therefore with me it carieth apparant shewe of truth which some in the begining of thos troubles have confidently avowed in writing, (in the margin: Cancell: Hisp:)that the ruine of that prince and swallowing up of the countrie, was a plot laid downe, and resolved upon before ever he lift up his hand, or moved his foot against them.

GENT:

Sir, this last branch of your discourse leaveth a deepe impression in my mind, that the Palatinat is a sweeter morsell, and of better rellish in the mouthes of the devourers then before I imagined.

KNIGHT:

Assure yourselfe it is soe. And it infinitely importeth the kinge our master, for manie waighty causes and considerations, to make them disgorge their stomaks of it. Among many reasons and motives exciting him there unto (in margin:1.) I must call to remembrance in the first place, the firme and settled resolution of his royall father, (whos memorie to so pious a sonne cannot be but precious and venerable) which he (in the margin: Reasons and motives for the king our master to attempt the recovery of the Palatinat) often expressed, as I have seen in severall writings to the Parlament House, and heard from his owne gracious lipps, "That he should think himselfe infortunate, and wish never to have ben borne, unles he might by such meanes as god had put into his hands, recover the Palatinat; And that as Moses sawe the lands of promise from an high mountaine though he had not leave to set his foote in it; So it would be a great comfort to him, though he might not see the restitution, yet at the least to be assured that it would be." And againe, thus said hee in some words after following: "I am old but my onelie sonne is younge, and I will promise for myselfe and him both, that no meanes shalbe unused for the recovery of it. And this I dare say as old as I am if it might be good for the buisines, I would goe in my owne person, and think my travell and paines well bestowed though I should end my daies there. With more to the same effect." If I produced no other motive but this one, it containeth in itselfe a congeries24 of arguments to persuade, and enforce resolution. (in margin: 2.) Heerto may be added the singular love and naturall afection of a most royall and magnanimous brother, to his sole and onelie dear sister (a ladie of incomparable worth and desert25) and to her faire and fruitfull princelie yssue, whome fortune, or rather the providence of the Almightie God, hath cast into the armes of his Royall Majestie, to protect them from oppression and to reestablish them in the inheritance of their famous anncestors, which wilbe a meane to raise his great name, and make it equall with the worthyest of the most noble progenitors, kings of this famous Iland. (in margin: 3.) The estimation and honour of the British Nation lyeth at the stake upon this game, and therefore it may not without reproach be given over, but must of necessitie be plaide out with confidence that in the end our Antagonists that have given us the check, shall themselves receave the mate. And let all true- hearted subjects to the king of Great Brittaine say thereto, Amen.

GENT:

Amen, say I. And might I heare for certaine that his majesties confederats, good freinds, and allies abroad, did joyne in heart and voice with us in the conclusion of this Pater Noster, I should then with some assurance, add the good successe of the buisines in to my Credo.

KNIGHT:

Wee have great reason to hope well of that desired union, in that some be already entred into the lists with thes conquering champions, about the Valtoline and Genoa; As alsoe, that the states of the United Provinces have receaved good assistance for their support nowe in their great need. It cannot be but that our Royall Master, and his neighboures, who see clerelie into the closest plots of the Spaniard, are and wilbe sensible of it, and provide accordingly aswell to secure themselves, as to affoord meet aide and succours to their oppressed frends. For in that this great and strong armed Vulcan, cannot well be doing with us all together, nor lay too many of his Irons in the fire at once, his pollicie hath ben to begin with the weakest first, and from thence to proceed to the next, and so forward by degrees, till he shall have mastered all. It is therefore wisedome for every man to provide in time, against the violence of this storme rushing upon us, Principiis Obstandum est. The longer a disease is suffred to growe and strengthen, the harder will it be to be cured. Tunc tua res agitur paries cum proximus ardet. It is high time for one to looke about and bestirre himselfe, when hee seeth his neighboures house on fire.

GENT:

Yea but good sir, I have often heard by my elders, wise and well-experienced men; I have likewise learned by reading of histories, and partly found by my owne observation, howe litle confidence is to be reposed in Confedracies. (in the margin: The small confidence that is to be had in confederacies. One absolute Prince worth many confederats.) One absolute mighty prince of themselfe, is better than halfe a dozen confederats, although their joint forces seeme farr to exceed his. Howe seldome doe confederate princes observe Religiouslie all articles of their confederacie? Howe soone doe they growe into mutuall jealousies and suspitions? Howe often be their Commanders caried contrarie wayes through ambitious emulation? The Souldiers intangled with contentions and quarrells? Every prince and state comonly aymeth at his owne end, whereto if he may once attaine, he either sitteth downe and is still, or perhapps joineth himselfe to the other side. Noe where have I found more frequent examples in this kinde, then in the warres of Italie scarce ended in our fathers dayes, where the Pope, the French and the Spaniard, with other the pettie potentats of that nation, entring into many leagues shifted and changed them, allmost as often as the moone. Nay further I will cite you one example to this purpose remarkable above all others, touching the instabilitie of Confederats and what small confidence is to be reposed in them. (in the margin: The legue before the battle of Lepanto) The confederacie betweene the Pope, the kinge of Spaine, and the state of Venice against the Turke, being religious, holy and just, and having receaved a singular testimony of gods good favour and assistannce, by the memorable defeat of the Turkish fleet at the battle of Lepanto; A man would have thought that so happie and prosperous a successe, as the confederats had in the first yeares warre, would have held them firmlie to the articles of the league. But what became of it? The very next yeare after that victorie, the Venetians bona fide proceeded according to the capitulations (so did his holines too, as I remember) They refurnished with all necessaries their promised fleet for prosecution of the victorie so prosperouslie begun, They came by the time prefixed to the place where the Spanish general Don John of Austria appointed, and promised to meet them; There after they long had expected him in vaine, he calls them from thence, and commands them to await him in another place; When likewise they had brought their fleet thither, they found Don John wavering, lacking victualls and many things ells, themselves to be meerlie mocked, nothing lesse intended, Then what had ben pretended by the Generall touching this yeares service; Which because it would have redounded in chief to the benefit of the Venetian state, the Spaniards had no great good will to it. Whereupon that wise and grave Senate, finding the unsincere dealing of their Spanish confederats, according as the necessitie of their affaires then pressed them, they entred into a league or truce with the Turke, which they have kept ever since to the benefit of their comon-weale; Neither can I learne that they have ben hastie after that to repose themselves uppon *confederacies. (in the margin: *not upon Spanish)

KNIGHT:

I have listened to your discourse with good attention for you have spoken pithilie and to purpose in expressing the conditions and properties of some confederats; And the examples by you produced do concurr to make good your position, that one absolute monarch is worth many confederats; Yet you shall never be able by this, nor by many instances more to prove that leagues and confederacies are of no good use to thos that relye upon them, which is the scope I perceave you ayme at. I could exemplifie five times for one to confute you. But forbearing that needles excusion, (especiallie towards the end of our conference, the evening being come upon us) I will rather sticke a whiles upon your owne examples; And do praie you to consider in the first, that the often alteration of leagues and confederacies (in the margin: The Popes have ben the most inconstant, & mutable confederats of any others) in thos Italian troubles, proceeded for the most part, if not allwayes, from the wavering disposition and inconstancies of the Popes, who comonly are more jealous of their states and priviledges spirituall and temporall, then kings and princes be. You shall reallie find my words true if you mark well the observations of a good historiographer living in thos times, who wrote of the warrs, and had himselfe his dependencie on the Pope. I trust we shall not be pestred with his holines for a confederat on our side, because I think he will never be true to us; and if at any time he prove firme and constant in his confederacies, it will be against us.
Your other example trulie is the most remarkable of any one that I can call myselfe to remembrance to have read off, and carieth a strang shewe with it, that a buisines of that importance so well and happilie begun, betweene three confederats alone, all equallie zealous in the Romane religion should so abruptly and fowlie be broken off. But you have rightly noted where the fault lay. Howbeit if you would inferr by this and some fewe like examples, that there is no good to be hoped for by leagues and confederacies, your precedents will come short of that prooff. I will reply unto you onelie by instancing in our Neighboures the Stats of the (in the margin: The states of ye United Provinces most sure confederats against the Spaniard. A.D. 1588) United Provinces, the good allies and firme confederats of famous Queen Elizabeth in the yeare 1588. (when the Spaniard threatned the conquest of this land) who to doe her majestie true service, and to performe with effect what by the league they were bound unto, waited so dilligently on the Prince of Parma with their fleet, that he durst not put himself and his army to the seas. For which their fidelitie herein, and otherwise manifested to her majestie shee afterwards graciouslie returned to them kind and heartie thanks.

GENT:

Marrie sir if wee might meet with a knot of confederats so fast and surelie tyed one to the other as were this Dutch and Queen Elizabeth, (or as they are nowe like to be unto us) I think in truth it were a very hard matter for the Catholique king with his best power to break them. But where (in god's name) shall you meet againe with such an obstinat generation of people bent against their ancient Lord, as they bee? They can endure the name or sight of a Spaniard no more then the divell can abide holie water. I am persuaded that if Spanish bloud and theirs were poured into one basin, (the antipathie betwixt them is so great) it would part assunder, and not admit of mixture the one with the other.

KNIGHT:

To let passe your pleasant conceipt, and speak punctually to the matter, I say with full confidence and assurance, there is no doubt to be made of resolution and sinceritie in thos Princes and States whose alliance is relyed upon in this important affaire. whereupon dependeth the wellfare and securitie of them and their people, as well as our selves; And you, or any ells of your partie that shall presume to cast such an aspersion of inconstancie upon any prince or state whatsoever, are highlie to be blamed for it. But it must be granted that your generall words may very well admit a more favourable interpretation; which I assure me is most agreeable to your honest meaning.

GENT:

Sir, if no man meant worse to that buisines then I doe, it were like to speed well enough; yet you must give me leave sometimes, by casting doubts in your way, to make you walk the more cirumspectly. Nam qui nil dubitat, nil capit inde boni. >

KNIGHT:

Therein you deale freindly with me, and I thank you for it. If your wit and ingeny26 present unto you any other difficulties, I desire you make me partaker of them, to the end I may give you reasonable satisfaction; (if I be able) which if I cannot do, I shall willingly subscribe to what you say. For I never was, nor never wilbe wrangling and contentious.

GENT:

Why then, good sir, being dispenced withall by your voluntary and free offer, I wilbe bould to crave your judicious and sound solution to one maine objection which I have heard diverslie propounded by many men, of purpose to diswade this pretended banding (as they call it) or Union which some so eagerly desire against the Catholique kinge. whereunto if you can make me a good satisfactorie annswere I shall forbeare to trouble you any further, and depart home to my house well contented. The objection is this, that for as much as the Spaniard and the house of Austria (which wee must accompt to be all one) be the verie Bullwarke of Christendome, (in the margin: A threefold objection to disuade a union against the Spaniard. 1.) (on that side) against our comon enemy the great Ottoman, if other Christian princes shall with furie and violence fall upon them , over-busie him alltogether in defence of himselfe, cause him to exhaust his treasure, consume his people, and weaken his forces upon us; What then doe wee ells but open a gapp to that wicked Mahometan miscreant, whereby to enter yet further into the bowells of Christendome, and to do by us as he hath done heretofore by Greece, meerlie in layinge hould of the like opportunitie offered through the dissertion of the Greke princes, as nowe shalbe presented unto him by ours? Will it not be a stinge in the Conscience of all good Christians to behould this cause of our division, produce such miserable effects?
(in the margin: 2.) Nay (by your leave) some yet even of your owne side add farther, for dehorting27 our nation in particular from upp houlding the Lowe Countrie men, against the kinge of Spaine; saying, that it is likelie enough ere long (if wee support them still as wee have done) by meanes of their Sea-strength, they may prove more prejudiciall to us and our state, then the Spaniard, or any bordering nation; They being a people so industrious, so laorious, so frugall, so adventurous for gaine in the quallitie and condition both of marchants and men of warre, that they will in trading beat-out and eat-out our marchants (which they have already begun to doe) and will strive to be masters at sea upon us, to the undoing and dishonour of our Nation.
(in the margin: 3.) Lastly (say thes men) wee shall change the sweet angellical face of Christendome, into the haggish shape of hellish furie; Introduce for Blessed Peace, Cursed Warr; for Christian Unitie, miserable Division, and that under the name of Union. Therefore it were much better and more befitting the dutie of christian kings and princes, to imploy their utmost endeavours for composing thes differences, and for obtayning from the Emperour and his Catholique majestie some reasonable conditions of accord, rather then to run rashlie and desperatly to this last and worst of all remedies, namely the sword; which is reckoned in holie scripture one of god's heavy punishments that he usuallie inflicteth upon obstinat sinners; And it never cometh alone, but bringeth with it, or draweth after it plague, pestilence, famine, and a wholl world of miseries besids. This (as I sayd before) is the objection, and thus branched; Which I have heard used by many good men, piouslie and zealouslie affected to the wellfare and tranquilitie of the christian comonweale, which yourself cannot but embrace and in your judgment approve, unlesse you be quite altered from what I have ever heretofore knowen you to be. I have insisted the longer upon this point, because I meane to presse you no further at this time, but onelie to await with attention your annswere heretofore, and so to shut up this daies conference.

KNIGHT:

In this your schollasticall combat with me you seem to deale as skilfull fencers use when they play their best prize, who wilbe sure to keepe one of their most exquisit feats till the last boute, so to give their adversarie a blowe at parting, and foile him at the farewell. Your objection is full of waight, and being one in the roote, shutteth out itself into three branches, I will endeavour to proyn28 them in order, as they sprowt themselves forth. For the first, it is true and may not be denyd, (in the margin: The objection annswered) (for wee must doe the Divell right) That the house of Austrich that ben of late yeares, and yet is (or rather maybe, if it please them) the chief Christian Bullwarke against that conquering and aspiring house of Ottoman, and as long as they shall contynue so to be, the Christian world is in that respect behoulding to them; So are they likewise in particular obliged to many of their neighbour princes, as members; And in generall to the wholl bodie of Christendome, whereof they are made the head, by election to the Imperiall dignitie. It were a very bad head and unfit to stand upon the body, unlesse it would by all possible wayes and meanes take care for the defence and preservation thereof. But I pray you may it not be demanded of them as that great Peripatetick asked allmightie God touching Job, 'Doth Job feare god for nought?' (in the margin: Totum qui circuit orbem) Do they not first and imediately fight for their owne freehould? Are not they themselves neerest in harmes way? If they were not, it might be doubted whether they would be so free of their purse and people for opposing that tyrant as they have ben. God grant they may still contynue in so good a mind to the honour of their familie, and benefit of Christendome. But you aske howe they can doe soe, if other Christian princes band against them? If wee keepe their twoe hands full, in fighting for their owne defence against us, what doe wee then leave them free but their twoe leggs to run away from them? Will not this division of ours bring us in to the same predicament that the Greek princes fell into by theirs?
You have inforced all this with verie good reason, neither can it be denyed; Onely it remaineth for annswere, to enquire and find out , in whom resteth the cause of this our discord and division, and when the fault is discovered where it lyeth there to begin the reparation and amendment. (in the margin: A question, in whom lieth the fault of this miserable division and contention between Christians.) I knowe before hand, the men of your side will lay it whollie upon the Prince Pallatine, and many aggravations wilbe exaggerated by some on that point. I should find matter to fill a volume, if I purposed to recapitulate the Criminations on the one side, or to write an apologie for the other: But I will forbeare both. And for brevities sake will proceed just so as I observe many times the best lawyers do for their clyents, In graunting somewhat to their adversarie frankly by way of admittance, (which bringeth no prejudice to their cause) and if upon admitting that which the other party desireth, they can neverthe lesse make their case appere equitable to the court, (for wee must nowe presume to be in a chauncerie29) , they seldome faile to carie the cause. Admit then there were a fault, and that a great one too, in the Elector Palatine, (then a very young prince, whos head doubtles never plotted it) I trowe30 it was not such, but it may be expiated? Hee hath already suffred more then enough for it, the particulars wherein hee so suffred I cannot call to memorie without grief, and that consideration shall make me forbeare handling them. What? Hath not the Imperial Majestie a Christian Royall heart, the nature whereof is not to tryumph in the miserie of distressed men, much lesse of dejected princes? Is there no remedy but that there must be Perpetua inimicitia?
Ames tanquam osurus (saith one) it is implyed thereby Oderis tanquam amaturus. A man by clemency, benignitie, bountie and such like heroick vertues, may regaine the hearts that for a while have ben estranged and alienated from him, yea and knit them to himselfe by a stronger bond then ever before. The Christian Emperour shall doe a worke of Christian pietie, to cast the compassionat eyes upon the miserable desolation of this afflicted body whereof he is the head, and to provide for helpe, before it run too farr into an incurable consumption. In his hands chiefly under God it lyeth and all possible faire means have ben used (as I said before) to perswade him into it: But if his majestie be either caried away with the violent perswasions of hot-spirited Jesuits (The Incendiaries of civill warrs) or otherwise, of his owne disposition do give such free passage to his displeasure, that nothing can mittigat or asswage it, Then in my understanding I see sufficient reason to affirme (in the margin: the question is heer aunswered.) that wheresoever the fault began at first, all men may easilie discerne where it lyeth nowe. And so I shut up my annswer to this parte of your objection, concluding that as for whatsoever disasters may happen hereafter on that side, from the Turke; the imperiall and Catholique majestie must beare the scandall and imputation of it. Volenti non fit iniuria. If they will needs have it soe who can helpe it? And for ought I can see, If anie trying will help it, It is such a desired union as my discourse aymeth at; whereby the Emperour and Spaniard being once closelie assailed, and finding resolution in other Christian kings and princes to resist their ambition, and to stand firme in the defence of their Common Libertie; It is then most likely, if ther be in them (as wee must hope there is) some reasonable measure of Christian pietie and Charitie, that they wilbe pleased to shake hands with their bretheren, and with unanimous assent and joint forces, proceed against that proud infidell, who hath so long tyranized and yet doth over many thousands of poor afflicted Christians. This may rather be wished, then hoped for. (in the margin: 2.) As for your second poore brannch, it is of itselfe so weake, that it will scarce beare a butter-flie, if he happen to light upon it: Though I cut it not off, it will fall away of itselfe. A vaine and idle feare it is, and (as men use to say) a doubt cast beyond thye moone, to be jealous over the growing greatnes of thos people, who possesse so small a portion of land, and are strong chiefly Se defendendo. They are good suer31 frends and usefull, especiallie at sea, to joyne with us and others against that great rising monarch, whom trulie wee have just cause to suspect, and to doubt off with a cautionarie (yet not cowardly) feare. But to feare the imaginarie greatnes of the Dutch, or to forecast and provide against that, is all one, as if a shepherd seeing a fierce hungrie lyon, or beare even neer at hand ready to fall in upon his flocke, should cast off the care and just feare of thos terrible devouring beasts, and settle himself for defence against a coople (couple) of sneaking beagles, whom he kenneth32 upon a hill farr off, following the morning walke of a timorous hare. But let us like good provident Shepherds first assure our flocke against thos fierce creatures; and then if wee see currs33 once fall to biting, wee may without much adoe find a staff to beat them away. And let this serve for a solution to the second part of your objection.
(in the margin: 3. Peace a most sweet and pleasant thing) Thirdly and lastly you inculcat the pleasing name of sweet peace. Dulce Nomen pacis, res vero ipsa iucundissima. This faire virgin (say you) wee shall expell, not out of our kingdome or province alone, but well-neer out of all the territories and dominions of Christendome, and in lieue thereof bring in sterne Bellona with her hellish traine, and all this under the specious title of Union. Here you enlarge yourselfe, expressing verely a true Christian zeale, wherein you are like to have all good men concurring in their desires with you. Seldome have I heard any man so inhumane, as simplie to prefer warre before peace, seeing this is a thing absolutely and in itselfe to be wished for, as being ever more attended and waited upon with all temporall blessings, preparing and framing us alsoe more apt for obtayning heavenly. The other to with warre, ought to have none other end and scope, but to acquire and purchase Peace. Wee sawe once faire hopes of this peace in the budd, but they were soone nipt in their blossom. Peace was sought of them whoe were enemies to it. Peace was in their lipps, butwarre in their hearts. They have gotten the start of us by advancing their victories in the time of frendly treaties, and what they have so gotten, it apperes (appears) they intend not to depart withall, but upon termes to our greater disadvantage and dishonour. Therefore except stronge and timelie opposition be made against them, they are like at length to reduce all conditions of peace and